[Podcast] How Marketing Attribution Failed Us (With Ryan Kopperud)

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Ryan

Today's topic is going to be one of which strikes a nerve for marketers. We're going to chase the rabbit hole that is marketing attribution. We're going to discuss is it working? If so, how? Or more importantly, is it failing you in your business and inhibiting your ability to grow the things that matter most? What I'm excited about. We're gonna talk about Paul's Boutique, Beastie Boys legendary album, and how it might loosely correlate to our topic of attribution as a whole.

All that and more on today's episode of On the Record.

Today, we're excited to be joined by another Ryan on set a multiple of two. It's great. Ryan Kopperud you join us is a long-standing marketing leader, one of which has impacted countless brands in the SAS sector. Welcome to On the Record.

Ryan K

Thank you. It's great to be here. And lead pages alum that we like most one. One of one of us still hopefully either in concept or in legacy.

This I love. Glad to be here. Your legacy, permeates. Last time you and I were doing a Lead Pages podcast together, you were behind the camera and I was in your chair all the time for many, many moons ago. And how the tides have turned. Yes, but it's gonna be love here. Yeah. Like. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Ryan

Yeah. And to my right, of course. Michael Sacca, CEO of Leadpages. I come to you as your head honcho of marketing, Ryan Truax, elite. Pages. And where I start by just defining the topic. Right. Marketing attribution is one of them, which has some weight and requires a definition, because some of our earlier marketers might not be familiar with it. So, Michael, take us through your version of marketing attribution and what it means to you.

Michael

Yeah. So I mean, I think generally people are familiar, but it's it's how we give credit to different touchpoints along the marketing journey. We all know the kind of classic seven touchpoints to to a conversion. How do we start to measure each of those touchpoints, give credit to allocate budget against? That's what marketing attribution was designed to try to solve.

Ryan

Ryan, in your version of from your own experiences? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the way that I think about marketing attribution is just about trying to quantify how somebody finds you. You know, if you're looking for a customer and they're out in the world, the vastness of the internet or the world in general, how did they go from not having any idea who I was to becoming up in customer?

Ryan K

And what can we do from a data point perspective to actually quantify that journey all the way to becoming that customer? And you're right, because marketers are always looking for that perfect element of scalability, right? Is the idea of finding something that works and and growing it from there. And one of the things excites me most about why maybe I'm maybe in favor of an attribution model is the ability to optimize my budgets.

Ryan

Right? If I know what's working, I know where to spend. Yeah. So I guess in favor of that. Do you agree, Michael, do you think that that's worthy of the the rabbit hole that is valuing every touchpoint at a certain dollar amount?

Michael

Yeah, I think there's, an elements of value to it, but I think the different models there is no one failed. Right? We've got first touch attribution, where we give all credit to the to the discovery, that last touch, which gives all credit to the conversion. We got multi-touch, which then you kind of make up your model in between of those 6 or 7 touchpoints across email or text or whatever.

The I don't think there is a perfect answer. And thus I think it's a good lens at which to analyze, but I do not think it's reliable enough. And I think lots of brands have actually made the mistake of allocating budget based on what would be a, imperfect model.

Ryan

Yeah. No question. Ryan, your experiences have taught you what? You like it, you hate it. Yeah. I think, you know, marketing attribution is a thing that, when we try to define it, there is our definition of it. But it can be scaled dramatically depending on the business. Right? Some people marketing attribution is like, do you have your pixel set up and are we watching those pixels?

Ryan K

Are we getting signal data from our pixels? Are we using UTM parameters okay. Those are all versions of attribution. And I think in a lot of those situations it's like okay, those are table stakes from an attribution perspective. Then there's this sort of okay, complex complete journey, fRyant to back touch, multi-touch, etc. that starts to really dive into a super heavy duty marketing operations component of things where we're starting to like really, really try to, formalize things in a way that that's where I think marketing attribution starts to become a little bit problematic.

If we overindex on data, we start to kind of take the soul out of marketing a little bit. You know, people will I won't be the first or last person to say this. I think a lot of people, think that they're logical creatures, and we all use our logic and reasoning to navigate the world, but we're really also super emotional creatures.

And to your point, allocating budget to just match the data. Sometimes it forces us to take the budget out of the heart of things and out of things that might be a little bit less attributable or less proven by the modeling. But are still things that are extremely value in some ways. I would advocate even more valuable than the things that you can actually scale from an ROI perspective.

Ryan

That's what I was going to ask. Also, are we overweighting its value inside of a business because we give it so much emphasis and at times I think it either holds people back because I kind of tease this episode with, or it does accelerate their ability to make decisions. We feel like attribution allows us to make faster decisions or slower decisions.

Michael

But I think the nature of data in general is we're looking backwards. And so if we're going to rely solely on the data, to your point, we're going to make decisions based on what's worked in the past. But we're going to miss some of that, where the market's moving, where we need to be in the future. By over indexing on data alone. And so it's one but it's not all.

Ryan K

Yeah, yeah. I come from a world of startups. I think one of the best values of any startup is its ability to be agile or nimble or quick force. I think over indexing on data, we get into a little bit of a paralysis by analysis, where we can't keep moving until we know if that funnel is working, or we can't keep doing this until we have clearer, cleaner data.

And I think, you know, chasing a perfect documentation of a beginning to end customer experience is, frankly, it's a fool's errand. And also it's getting harder to, you know, I mean, I think the thing I find a lot of folks are feeling in the marketing industry, I know I have and I know people, people like me are, you're starting to feel this.

Well, that used to work, but I feel like it doesn't anymore. I feel like we're. There's a gap here, isn't there? And then, I mean, every time you download a new app from the App Store, ask app not to track. That's me. Yeah, I do ask that app not to report before. I don't need my Google Display ads and any more tailored than they've been for my whole life, right?

I don't need that type of personalization. And I think we're seeing that become the, the general consumer's preferences. Like, I don't I don't need this personalization, this tailoring. I don't want you to track me. Well, the more that we continue to have that be the consumer preference. And we're seeing this happen in Safari and in Google and all these other places where like cookies are becoming more complex, etc., actually executing on the ideal world of I know exactly where my consumer started and ended with me as a business is getting harder and harder and ever.

And so I think like the conversation that I'm so interested in continuing to have with businesses and with folks like you guys even right now, is like, if it is getting harder, if you agree that it's getting harder, maybe you do. Maybe you don't like what's next. Then if it is getting harder, is chasing it worth the investment?

Because there's an opportunity cost and any startup brand, if you're doing something and you're chasing something, you are inherently not doing something else. You are inherently not chasing something else. And so, you know, are we over indexing on trying to perfect that model? And in doing so, are we losing the opportunity to look forward like you're into the future and goal?

What could we be doing, not just what has worked? Yeah, to the contrary though, I might suggest the customer experience is one that's improved upon by the right attribution. Right? Sure. Really. Like I, I talked to a lot of marketers and just general consumers who believe that, like, actually, I don't mind personalized ads because it gets me to my end goal.

Ryan

I was curious about something. Maybe not purchase ready, but it sure down well got me to where I wanted to be at some point in time. Totally. Now we gobble up those retargeting buttons by just by clicking on it and seeing that ad constantly. But for me, as a consumer of anything from clothing through any of the retail item, I kind of like a preference.

I'll click on an advert just so I know it'll come back to me. Maybe I'll be purchase ready at that point. So does it allow for an improved customer experience, or am I the anomaly here?

Michael

I think it can, but I don't think it's the rule. I don't think by definition this actually improves the customer experience. I also think you have to account for all interactions of your brand, and it's literally impossible to me telling you about, a new app that I've used is not trackable. Yeah, right. And so that word of mouth will simply get lost.

There was a famous Lululemon, study, right? Where, they, in their attribution modeling because it's digital first. They actually miss the in-store experience. Sure. And so with that, they were attributing excessive budget to to, experiences that weren't actually core to the buyer. Yeah. And so if a buyer is going in there trying on the clothes, that whole part of the funnel was missing, even if they're going home then and, and purchasing.

And so in a perfect world with perfect attribution, I think we could I don't think we're anywhere close today though.

Ryan K

Yeah, yeah. And not only do I not think we're close, I think we're getting further away from that perfect world and and again, like, it's becoming more expensive to try to accomplish that perfect world. Another example, to your point, a friend of mine is in, a slack group that's just for quotes. And there's maybe 150 total CMO was maybe last like 100 CMAs in this one channel or marketing leaders in general, I guess I should say.

And all the time it's, hey, does anyone have a recommendation for Ax tool? Yeah. Okay. Well, if people are just tossing links back and forth to each other inside of a private slack instance, how are you attributing that? Are you attributing that that might be the most impactful conversion point? Yeah, that exists is a bunch of my peers and a private group are advocating for the usage of a certain software or a certain tool, but you have no way to attribute that direct traffic, which is what it would end up being.

And your Google Analytics would just be a direct visit to your site and someone comes through. And so all those types of things, I think are continuing to. And you can't, you can't documented the entire existence of someone's experience with you because that experience is becoming more diverse, more complex, more private, more public, and all these different ways that it's like, how would you even, how would you even people still try, but how would you, even in it, achieve that perfect world if you want it to?

So what's what is the ideal version of that experience? Now, I'm not saying I'm representative of every one of my customers. Yes, we need data. We should always be looking for more data. But to a degree, I think creating great experiences just needs to be talked about as what would the ideal experience be? Let's focus on just creating an ideal experience for our customer and then start tracking it, not let's start tracking and then double down on whatever the tracking is telling us to create another experience.

Ryan

I think you're getting back to why we believe that marketing attribution has failed us all. And that's the title of today's episode. It's not that we weren't all uniquely take that stance, but I think we're starting to unpack why it's gotten the way of things, because even my little use case, I like to click on an ad, so I see it continually.

Again, there should be a diminishing returns on every click that I take, because I have shown a lack of an ability to get over the finish line. There is no multi-touch attribution model that is diminishing. My first click at $2. Then we'll ride into the action a dollar for that click. And now to my third or fourth or fifth click.

That's a blind spot. And I think that we're talking in circles about those blind spots. But Michael, where do you think is the biggest blind spot within just in a first touch or multi-touch or last click even model?

Michael

Well, I think it's, it's easy first and last. And that's where we've always started. But I think there's touch points in between that are either invisible, like in a slack channel. Like maybe you've been looking at software and then, you know, your friend who's also a trusted advisor, says, I use that, okay, that's going to put me over the line.

It's not an experience that a brand can say create. Or it may be channels that are less, trackable or less populated. So it might be like I saw some good insights on their social media. And then I later on decided to to visit or an email got me and reminded me that I was checking out. That's all for now

I'm going to go back into it. That's not a channel that you're then going to necessarily see on every model at volume and invest in, but it may be an essential touchpoint to conversion that in the first and last touch and even multi-touch becomes really hard to identify unless you're looking through it at different vantage points. And I think that's what we miss through over indexing on a single model for a company.

Ryan

I think I'll just steal your thunder just quickly. Word of mouth advertising was taught to us as the forefathers is the most compelling advertising method we have. It's hard to create that evangelism and do the things like you said, inside of a slack channel. So we're blind to those moments. But what else margin might you suggest that we're blind to if we adapt and invest into a multi-touch model, for instance?

Ryan K

I mean, I don't know, I don't know if this is the same thing as, like what we're blind to, but, you know, to come back to a point that I made earlier, I do think one of the things that we become blind to is sort of, the heart and soul component of marketing. And I don't mean that to sound corny, but like, I do think like one of the reasons people love Super Bowl ads is because Super Bowl ads are narrative based, they're emotion based, and sure, you know, I think last year I can't even remember what the company was at a QR code.

Okay, great. Yeah, that would track your QR code. I'm sure the marketers got a bunch of ROI high fives for being like, look, we paid this much for our ad and this many people came to the site. There we go. We can draw a straight line from our Super Bowl ad, but I think for the most part, I think most consumers like things that are narrative based, that tell a story that some emotion.

And I'm not saying those things are impossible with attribution. Obviously, you can be doing those things and still be using attribution modeling for the rest of your marketing and advertising efforts. And again, I think you should you should be looking for data has a marketer. But I do think if we overindex on it, which is I think what we keep coming back to, yeah, if you overindex on that data, then you'll never do something that's narrative based or emotion based.

You'll never be doing, you'll never be getting back to the just the what is the problem that our product or our business is here to solve? And for who and what is their life like once it's been solved, it's like, no, we'll just go. We've got to have one more link in this email or one more, you know, on our touchpoint in this funnel or whatever it might be.

And that just starts to, it just sucks the whole soul out of the storytelling aspect and the brand aspect, the experience aspect that you're trying to create for your customers because you're not trying to create a great experience, you're just trying to do more of what works. Dollar and $2 out dollar and $2 out until you start seeing the diminishing returns of that.

Ryan

Yeah, I think every you know, maybe no offense CEO wants to see just an objective. Well, if I give you a dollar, give me two in return. And it's just very easy formulaic. We'll install this and you will get this return. But the problem is marketing is just a little abstract in these moments. And yes, we have to allow for the creative freedom.

I think that you're suggesting right now where it's like, hey, if we get to beholder this, we're going to not see some of the great things that we could achieve without it. So yeah, I like the we're talking about soul because I think it's a fantastic segue into the musical theme today, which has a lot of soul inside of just, Paul's boutique legendary record.

I think we're all going to get our opinions out of here in just a minute about what it means to us and more importantly, what it might mean to market it.

Ad Break

So again, our favorite part of the episode, perhaps we're going to take a peek inside of what Paul's Boutique means in the way of marketing attribution. And I know, Ryan, you know, I talked off a camera with Mike a little bit, and you're like, there's something that makes a lot of sense to me.

I want to see if it makes sense to the listener and pull up your device, please, and share it with us. I will, I will so, you know, okay, here's my experience. I did not grow up on this record. I know this record. I have listened to this record many times. I enjoy this record. It's not my favorite Beastie Boys record.

Ryan K

But I think it's an important record for the Beastie Boys catalog. I think some people put it as the best Beastie Boys record. I think some people don't. What I kind of think about Paul's Boutique specifically is, you know, I was I'll date myself. I was two when this record came out, so I'd come back to this record later in life.

But I think, like one of the things that's interesting to me about Paul's Boutique is you see it referenced a lot by other musicians. And one of the things that I think about is, you know, if whether or not I think it's their best record, maybe not relevant, but what I think is Paul's Boutique needed to exist for a lot of other things to exist.

Paul's boutique needed to exist for the rest of the music catalog to exist. Paul's boutique informed a ton of really popular musicians, just a few that have referenced it. I look this up, back, LP and like Run the Jewels have referenced this record. One of my all time favorites, Pharrell Williams. He has a quote.

He said when poverty came out, it was just like a huge door opened. The sampling was so clever, and it was just so detailed. That's from a, an interview that he did with Q-Tip in 2019. I think what I'm bringing this up to say is, I think part of our conversation has been matching attribution needs to exist in service of something else.

It is not its own pinnacle. Achieving it, whatever even achieving it is, I think we still haven't gone. Like, what would achieving that be if we had perfected our attribution modeling or whatever? And so I think like that's kind of how I see this record is like this record is potentially a way of saying this needed to happen for other things to exist, but make sure that those other things that exist are things that are focused on and important and valued as well.

Ryan

Yeah. That's our it's a stepping stone to other things that are probably a greater than its origin maybe. Yeah. And I think, Michael, listen, you've had a lot of personal experiences. This record I think you.

Michael

This is a record I grew up with.

Ryan K

Yeah. So I mean, I just threw it. Yeah. Yeah, I like that about you. I didn't mean to put anybody. But the correlation attribution. Paul's would take a collage, a tapestry of sorts. What what's it mean to you?

Michael

Well, I think that's the important part about the famous thing about Paul's Boutique is the sampling. Yeah. And just the volume of sampling, the inability that they were able to put it out. But if this existed just 3 or 4 years later, not possible. It wouldn't come out right. It wouldn't have been the piece of art that that it is.

And I think the say there isn't where sampling evolved into, I think because of the legislation was really like very singular. Samples. Right. Almost whole songs. If we look forward like 12, 15 years from this album, but with this is you can't pinpoint one specific sample that makes or breaks the song, you know? Right. But as a tapestry, it comes together as a, as a whole new piece of art.

From from where many of these, these came from. So I think that's the for me, that was kind of the, the theme and the tie in was it's really hard to listen to this record and say, these are the five samples that matter. Yeah. That is similar to, to your your touch points. It's hard to without all of them. There is no hole.

Ryan

So I couldn't agree more. And we're talking about 105 unique samples that bring this record to life. And it's it's astonishing because kind of like into your buyer journey might be abstractive with me more touch points than you ever thought or we give it credit for. So again, are we doing the right thing by investing in these models?

I think maybe they've taught us that you can achieve success by spreading yourself very wide, but also not having to tie to each one thing independent of the next. Yeah, yeah, it's it's an exciting kind of thing to look at and pull back to.

Michael

You made a really good point about where it sits in their catalog. And I think that's also one of the important pieces to kind of pull out here is this is them moving on from kind of Rick Rubin. The the license to IL, right wasn't necessarily the record that they wanted to make, and this was them kind of stepping out and, refined, finding themselves as artists.

So, and while like, I don't think any single track on this record is in the top five most listened to Beastie Boys song.

It is, it certainly helped to inform to your point where they would eventually go. And it's that risk that allows, even as a brand or as a company, is that the risk that you need to take to even get where you end up being on your journey? I love that, yeah.

Ryan K

I think that's interesting too. When you talk about like there not being any, I would even argue potentially none of like not even the top ten, maybe not top 20. Beastie Boys songs like our maybe off this record. I shouldn't say that, but like maybe top ten, there's some good songs and I know that there's no good song, but like if you think of all the Beastie Boys hits, like when I was revisiting this record, I was like, oh, that song's not on there.

That song's not on there either. How? Yeah, not now. That sounds like I'm there. And I was almost like realizing that this song really is. Or excuse me, this album really is a whole, you know, and and it is from an era to where, you know, as we've all gotten older, records stopped being perceived as these singular journeys where it's like, oh, press play and wait to the end, you know, nobody and actually, like, it's kind of beautiful that it is vinyl because vinyl lends itself very specifically to you.

Press play and you wait until you flip it. Yeah. And then you press play again, and you wait until you flip it. How? There's a, there's a completeness to it that there is no singular stand out. Yeah, it is an arc. You kind of have to go through the whole arc, but also to I think what's so interesting and fun about this record is there are no pun intended, like some like, record scratch moments where it's like, oh, wait, what what are we doing here?

Oh wait. Yeah, we all over wait. Are we are we back in there like Beastie Boys rock band fans. Like there's like, you know, there's like all these kind of very, there's like these oddities, if you will, throughout this record, which is really fun. It makes it fun to listen to. It's very, keep you on your toes.

And I think, like, you could even maybe make a connection between some of those oddities of some of the things that we're talking about where there are unexpected or on, diagnosable moments in a journey that you kind of have to allow for those those things are happening in your customer's world. Those things are happening on this record.

Right? You're like obsessing like, oh, now we're over here. Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't have guessed that. I wouldn't have known that I would have expected that. And so, yeah, just like seeing this record as one entire arc without any individual standouts, but knowing that people perceive the entirety as a stand out. Yeah, that's one journey. Yeah.

Ryan

One record. Yeah, yeah. One wonder percent. I think what people forget, I mean, like, attribution models have promised us success, right? This idea that you will achieve this monolithic status and all will be well, this record came out. It did not just zoom up the charts and all of a sudden you're like, oh my goodness, this record is revolutionary.

This was critically acclaimed and slowly developed into some commercial success. I think often I would come to you, Michael, say, I got the marketing attribution model, man, I can spend 5 million next year because I can prove every dollar. And if it flops on impact, do I get to see it to its critically acclaimed success? I might have lost on my gust on the fRyant end.

So for those that have and broad and marketing attribution modeling to their business upon its release, you could lose all the momentum that you built coming into it because it has such emphasis. Right? Yeah. We're I don't know if you have the patience to allow to see in at a multi-touch model, for instance, come to its fruition for it ever to make sense.

So we're telling people maybe things to consider. We don't attempt to do it because of this design success of probably. Is it within reach.

Michael

They needed the brand equity to get here.

Ryan K

One of them yeah.

Michael

They had built it. Yeah. If the next record was a flop, we might not be talking about the thing. So interest but but it wasn't and it helped them get there, but, but you're right. Like, in a business, no record label is necessarily happy about this having to clear 105 sample, that that, you know, none.

Nothing about it. Yeah. It would be, a success at that time. But if we can zoom out, it did lead to, what would be quite a prolific career for them.

Ryan K

Yeah, that's an interesting point. Specifically, like a word that you use to that. I really think is crucial is patience. And a lot of marketers, they don't have patience. And part of indexing on data too, I think, is just being like, as soon as something's working, do as much as you kind of that thing right away, because we don't have time.

We never do. I would never have to. But but but I think like that the ability to be patient, to say we know that this won't be attributable today, it won't be attributed well, tomorrow, it might not even be attributed for another quarter or so here. But we know that again, going back to indexing on the experience. And you could make the connection like maybe, maybe the Beastie Boys said, this isn't the record that everybody wants or it's not exactly like our last record, but we're going to make what we want to make because we think it's an ideal listening experience that might take a little time to get into people's psyches.

It might take a little time to get into the culture and have people go, oh, this is kind of dope. It just has taken me some time to really, like, turn it over in my head. You might have to have patience with something like that. I think a lot of marketers, I mean, look, some of us aren't afforded patience.

We don't have the ability to be patient, whether that's your board or your boss or whatever it might be. The budget number dwindles. You know, you might you just might not be afforded the ability to be patient. However, I think if you're just listening to data and you're just chasing the quickest, fastest win because the data tells you it, you may be missing out on the patience it requires to do something great or make something that is ideal from like an actual experiential perspective.

Ryan

Now, well said, and I love that. I think we've we've danced around it, but there is this opportunity to for us to talk exclusively about the music. Right. We've, we've we did a fine job on. I give ourselves a pat on the back saying that we've been able to tether the tie and quirky attribution to a pop record.

We did it. Listeners are probably just off the rocker, like these guys. There's students, aren't they? But we have found a way, I think, to do so. But I want to talk just about the art itself because we're all moved by it. Humanity as a whole is just quickly your gentlemen's, your feelings on the record itself. Anything that stands out to you, Michael, start with you.

You've talked about it, it's impactful. But to what extent?

Michael

I mean, I think there's a joy in it. There's like a free flowing creativity to it. It is, there's like silly moments. You got Eggman, and then you get right, like it's either third track. Yeah. You've got kind of there what would be really become their signature and like, Shadrach and some of those, those songs, but that there is just a joy and a and an energy to it.

Yeah. That that goes throughout whether they're, you know, playing guitar or, or otherwise. Yeah. So that's kind of, my takeaway is it really felt like they were having fun making it. Yeah. And it really it sounds like an extension of, what we would eventually know them to be.

Ryan K

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Right. Yeah. I super well side. I think energy is like the word for me when you listen to this record, I also feel like, one of the beautiful things about the Beastie Boys is the way that their voices complement each other and know, but, you know, just like the jumping back and forth between, you know, verbals and, it the whole record, I think I said it earlier, but, like, it keeps you on your toes, just consistently not expecting what's going to come next or even, you know, even though a lot of their rhymes, I would say are like still simplistic.

They're from that very late 80s, early 90s. There are still things like lyrics in there that catch you by surprise or like, you know, things you wouldn't expect to hear on a rap record and things like that. So, that energy and that sort of uniqueness, I mean, the Beastie Boys are very singular in so many ways. I think, like really shines on this record.

And, it just makes it a, a really fun listen because you just are you're consistently sort of waiting for what's going to happen. Yeah. I see the energy and joy coming through in a specific instrument within their music. It's the drums that are the kind are the backdrop, the canvas to this record, because there are drum breaks for days.

Ryan

I don't want to suggest how many they are, but there's a continuity throughout what I'm shocked by. I mean, there's a million different snare tones, kick tail and cymbal tones, whatever might be. Yeah, I found myself thinking these drum sounds if they were cut in a singular studio, you know, I know they're simply not. I thought it brought their the vocals to life in a way.

It gave them a kind of a white palette to insert joy. Right? Because it was so fun. It was so lively. These tempos we don't see today. And hip hop, right. This is fast, upbeat, kind of stuff from a new generation lost. I mean, to me that was so captivating to see them do that for as many tracks as they did in this record.

And and it gave them the ability to intersperse a variety of samples, as we've touched on in a very meaningful way.

Ryan

I mean, shout out to them for even attempting this. Like I'm working it out together. Shout out to those that have did it. But if you're going to achieve results like this, it's hard not to be proud of your efforts.

Michael

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Ryan

Awesome. I think we did a nice job talking about attribution, but I want to leave, like with every episode, a couple of key takeaways. We want our marketer skill to apply some of the things that they've learned today. What can they do differently or more importantly, what should they avoid? Michael a hard-hitting takeaway, please.

Michael

So I mean, I think when we look at attribution, I think of the tool. And I think too often we're asked to come up with a model and then report on that model. But I think it's actually more like lenses. And if we start to look at first touch, last stage, even multi-touch simply as data points, even in the model itself, we can start to zoom in and out of different areas that matter to the to the customer through their their conversion journey.

Yeah. So I don't think it's to say attribution modeling is is useless. I think our emphasis on it and the expectations that are set on a marketing team, because of it, I think that's really where we've we've failed a bit and we we could course. Correct.

Ryan K

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Really. Well said. I think from my perspective I would say, make sure that whatever data you are collecting is useful to you is you said it's a tool. Like do it until it's useful. Don't just do it for the sake of doing it. Because I do think a lot of people collect data for the sake.

Well, like, we could collect data if there's more out there. Let's go get more of it. Right. It's like, well, yeah, I would, you could. Sure. But is it all adding value? Is it adding to your day to day? Is it adding to your quarter to quarter to actually continue collecting more data and continue kind of indexing and over indexing and refining, make sure that you're focusing on the right stuff first and making sure all your table, all your table stakes are in place before you start kind of evolving and layering on that.

Ryan

Those tracking components, that's actually I like that I was going to say a tighten focus. Right. Marketers jobs are now have never been more wide spanning than yeah today. So this this work can be applicable to some but not for all. Just because you read an article, you listen to a podcast, perhaps this one that suggests trod on precise.

Yeah. Right time, right place. Right this. This has its place in it is valuable if done correctly. Free organizational needs and fits. Yeah. And going back to a point that I made earlier too, especially when you are trying to grow and you are trying to grow quickly. Everything is opportunity cost. Yeah. So you are spending time focused on something.

Ryan K

It means you are choosing not to focus on something else. And so just make sure that if you are focusing yourself or your team on a thing, that that is the best use of your time, because you are missing out on the ability to do something else. If you are. So great point. Yeah, yeah, I think that in itself is a bow on today's episode riding out of.

Ryan

Thank you. You're an elite hip-hop mind, a marketing mind. As such, you've been and you brought a lot to this podcast today. You've helped us unpack a relatively complex subject, perhaps our most complex today, and a complex record and a complex record. Right, 105 samples here as well. So, Michael, appreciate you as always for the great macro view on the business as a whole and more specifically today, marketing attribution.

As always, we thank you for your time and attention. Listening to our podcast today, find us on your favorite podcasting platform. We're always there. We're always present. We're coming with a lot more topics that are hard heading just like this. And, tune in for more episodes of On the Record. Brought to you by Leadpages.